My Star Fox 3D fan art...

[reflex]

Its supposed to be an Arwing II. (It is smoothed out once)
http://www.supload.us/thumbs/default/Arwing_(Smooth_1).JPG (http://www.supload.us/free/Arwing_(Smooth_1).JPG/view/)

[Water]

Its supposed to be an Arwing II. (It is smoothed out once)


Might not have enough polygons for the smoothing.

[takashi]

hhhm....im working on a particulary detailed ship, but i can help you out.


maya is a very good program for getting the basic shape done, but unless you cant export without watermarks or such, use other programs to fine tune like wings 3d or blender.

http://wings3d.org/
http://blender3d.org/


have you ever planned out your model on a piece of paper, along with preferred poly count? once you save there is no undo, so be sure you get it perfect. before you even dare position your mouse over "save", think the following things:

"is it long enough?"
"are there too many polygons?"
"is it too jagged?"
"is it too smooth?"
"is it detailed enough that textures will not look cheesy?!"
"can other people improve on it if its released as open source?"
"is it too large along the Z and Y axis?"
"can i texture it without the UV map being a huge amount of lines?"
"cam it be UV mapped at all?"
"are the normals flipped into the right position?" (blender is good for this)
"can it be exported into the most used programs?"
"is it textured, or just colored faces?" (yes, theres a difference)
"is it good enough to impress someone?" (you may find yourself asking this alot)
"was i happy when i made it?" (seems kinda goofy, but it realy affects quality)

yeah...imcomplete list. just follow those and make another one, and lesee the perfection!

[Jonathan_S47]

Takashi, Maya is a perfectly fine program to use for modeling. Several scenes in the Lord of the Rings movies were done in Maya 3. He doesn’t need to download any other programs to work with. Just learn how to use the one he has.

[DaBrain]

Yepp.

While Wings3d is a very nice tool, it's not a real match for Maya.
Wings is imo the better program to start modelling and maybe you won't even have to move on to another one, cause it covers a big area of low-poly modelling. Perfect for games. ^^

Blender is more powerful and even outmatches commercial software in a few areas. However, it lacks in other areas and is imho rather hard to learn and use.

All programs have certain advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on what you can work best with.

[Lt. Cannonfodder]

maya is a very good program for getting the basic shape done, but unless you cant export without watermarks or such, use other programs to fine tune like wings 3d or blender.

Jon and DB already said it, but I just had to respond to this. Blender and Wings are very nice free 3d applications, but Maya is a hardcore professional package. How you came up with the idea that you can only do basic shapes with it is beyond me.

have you ever planned out your model on a piece of paper, along with preferred poly count? once you save there is no undo, so be sure you get it perfect.

Making a sketch is fine and recommended, but what the hell are you on about that there's no undo after save? Ever heard of saving a new file every now and then so you can go back if needed? Great for backups too if the model gets corrupted. Modeling 101 stuff here.

"is it long enough?"
"is it too large along the Z and Y axis?"

Erm, I'll assume you mean if the ship is scaled properly. Proportions are the important thing to get right, you can always scale the ship later. You know, the tools that are usually referred to by something like "Scale" and "Stretch".

"can other people improve on it if its released as open source?"

Unless the model is designed to be modified by other people, the artist does not have to take stuff like that into account.

"can i texture it without the UV map being a huge amount of lines?"
"cam it be UV mapped at all?"

Anything can be uvmapped, it's just a matter of time and patience. But good modeling helps here too.

"are the normals flipped into the right position?" (blender is good for this)

Yes, I'm sure a software that is in the price range of 6k dollars does not have such a complex tool that can flip polys.

"can it be exported into the most used programs?"

Really depends on what you are going to use the model for. If it's for your own enjoyment and rendering purposes only, you don't have to care about exporting.

"is it textured, or just colored faces?" (yes, theres a difference)

Oh really?

[Unknown Target]

Maya is a very good program for getting the basic shape done, but unless you cant export without watermarks or such, use other programs to fine tune like wings 3d or blender.

For a comment like this, I recommend you leave the modeling advice to others. Like everyone else has said, Maya is a professional package, Wings and Blender are nowhere near the same class.

have you ever planned out your model on a piece of paper, along with preferred poly count? once you save there is no undo, so be sure you get it perfect. before you even dare position your mouse over "save", think the following things:
Or he could just save different versions. Fighter1, Fighter2, etc. That's what I do, in case I need to go back.

"is it long enough?"

What? "Long" enough? Ever seen the Slave One?

"are there too many polygons?"

Take this own advice to heart. I've seen what you did with your other thread, with that unbelievably huge ship made out of a gazillion polies.

"is it too jagged?"

This is A) related to the post above, and B) a jagged ship is sometimes a style choice. Not everything has to be smoothed to look like a jelly bean.

"is it too smooth?"

See above.

"can other people improve on it if its released as open source?"

What does that have to do with anything?

"is it too large along the Z and Y axis?"

Er...same as the "is it too long". What? In fact, it's better if it's really long on the up/down axis, IMO, because no one designs ship along that axis, they always make them like Earth ships. If you go along that axis, you'll get some pretty unique designs.


"are the normals flipped into the right position?" (blender is good for this)

So is pretty much every 3D app...

"can it be exported into the most used programs?"

AFAIK Maya can export to anything useful, and if it can't, most conversion software/other modeling programs can read it's default format.

"is it textured, or just colored faces?" (yes, theres a difference)

Which you have found out quite aptly.

"is it good enough to impress someone?" (you may find yourself asking this alot)

What? Who cares. You make the model to the best of your ability, and you improve as you go.

"was i happy when i made it?" (seems kinda goofy, but it realy affects quality)

...

yeah...imcomplete list. just follow those and make another one, and lesee the perfection!

I suggest you follow quite a few of them yourself.


----

As for the model, I can see what you're trying to do, but it's too smoothed IMO - the entire ship looks like one whole blobbish thing. If you look at SF ships, they're all kind of segmented and sharp-lined - there's the fuselage, the G-Diffusers (that's what I think they are, right?), and then the wings on the ends. I'd suggest applying some smoothing groups (dunno what they're called in Maya), and flattening out some of those surfaces to break up the blobbish look. Otherwise, looks good, just needs more detail (especially separating of fuselage components and a cockpit, although the latter really isn't necessary).

[takashi]

1: list works for me.

2: the big ship had to have so many polies. if it were so big with a low poly count, it would look like a combination of a rectangle and a blimp.

3: show me that 3ds max and truespace have normal flippers that dont flip the whole model

i'll make a model following that list and prove that it works. otherwise, i will delete the post.

[Water]

1: list works for me.

2: the big ship had to have so many polies. if it were so big with a low poly count, it would look like a combination of a rectangle and a blimp.

3: show me that 3ds max and truespace have normal flippers that dont flip the whole model

i'll make a model following that list and prove that it works. otherwise, i will delete the post.

Takashi, It's good that you are trying to help others. But your level of knowledge is still at a very basic level. I recommend Blender because it is good and free, Don't make the assumption that it is the best software in all areas, because it's not. Do you know how long Max and Truespace have been in development. 3D studio started in the DOS world. It is older probably than you. (just kidding) And yes they have the tools to do the job.

Part of the reason I no longer comment on your models is because you would jump from project to project without sorting out the many errors. It basically stopped you from improving. Since you are commenting on others work without sorting out your own stuff (and knowledge level) it makes you look like an idiot.

(Try not to take this the wrong way)

[DaBrain]

3: show me that 3ds max and truespace have normal flippers that dont flip the whole model


Are you serious? You can of course flip whatever polygon or even edge you'd like to in MAX.

That's a VERY basic feature, so I'm pretty sure even older versions of Truespace support it.

I agree with Water. You should better UV map, texture and convert your models before you start working on the next one. Also your advice will be (and sound) less theoretcially when you're (really!) done with a few models.

[takashi]

actualy, i am. :)

[Unknown Target]

Congrats, you managed to finish a model. Let's throw a ticker-tape parade.
Takashi, your big ship was basically a box with super high (wasted) poly turrets stuck around it. At least, as far as we could tell. You couldn't figure out how to zoom out to take a proper screenshot.
Please, it's nice that you're trying to help, and I know I sound like an asshole, but leave the advice to people who are more accomplished in the modeling field, and maybe take some of theirs/ours (me being a reasonably competent modeler, although I am of course, still learning).

And as for your points:

1: list works for me.


That's great. Your list might not work for everyone else. In fact, that's a really super long detailed approach to making a model - I just get a pencil and paper, draw out the model, scan it in, then model it right off the picture. I don't think about all that other stuff. Everyone has their own work pattern that they develop over time.

2: the big ship had to have so many polies. if it were so big with a low poly count, it would look like a combination of a rectangle and a blimp.

As I said before; you wasted thousands of polies on that model in places that you didn't need them. As far as we could tell (or at least me), it looked like a box with lollipops on the top.

3: show me that 3ds max and truespace have normal flippers that dont flip the whole model

That is probably the most basic feature, right up there with making a box. Truespace and 3DS Max are probably two of the most advanced modelers on the market today (although TS is an absolute bitch to learn, and it's interface is crud.)

[Ryokukitsune]

well just as my two cents, maya is an awsome package. not nessicarily the rite starting block for beginers but its has a lot of tools that make the pipeline of production a lot easier. some of which apply moer to the cinematic production rather than the game design but scripting and plugins add a lot more functionality to it to those ends. (hl2 mdl export plugs and scritps for instance, various UV mapping tools developed by 3rd partys and implimented in later versions, edge loop for inscance. EDGE LOOP THANK GOD!)

I have used blender and yes it is a very versital package and its free and open source (i think) so everything in it is modular and developed externaly so it makes some of the organization a bit lopsided and getting all the tools you need to make a project may be a bit tedious, one reason i didnt spend to much time learning it the first time around. it has a lot of the power of the professional packages but it will take some time before someone makes many of the features (such as rendering engines and such) that rival or are equal to the effiecncy of professional packages. i think if you have the rite tools in blender its just as good as maya for modeleing maybe even better but you would need to export into another package to do seriouse rendering.

Personaly i think 3DS Max is a better starting block for someone learning the trade because it is a professional 3d package and its relitivly glitch free. lots of tools and lots of spasific help to do almost any aspect of any kind of project. not to say its generic in any way but a fair number of the 3d package out have similar controls and options that 3ds max has and knowlege aquired learning Max from front to back can translate very easily into other programs. however going back to max from some other programs may be annoying (I can give testiment to that) because of some of the controls are limited compaired to others. (for example, after useing maya for so long I'm used to the orthographic views not moving going back into max makes that a bit hairy to get used to)


as to the other end of this conversation, most of the points posted do releate to game development, modeling riging and texturing a prop does need to have a few considerations but most of them are outside the scope of a modeler.

if you have a concept to work from (that you didnt create) you dont have to worry about how long or tall it is. scale can be adjusted from any good SDk or by changing a value or two in the file you exported.

texturing is an issue with any model but most of the concern comes from how big the texture file actualy is. if you have a model on the screen that will only take up about 4-5 pixels on the screen it dosent need anything larger than a 24x24 pxiel map or it could just use the empty space from another texture as aposed to loading its own.

rarely in games do textures need to be any larger than 512 or 1024 if you really want to push the hardware. if the texture looks like poop, you really need to adjust the layout of the UVs to compensate for screen space.

correcting poly normals is more of a cosmetic problem. its never that hard to fix and any 3d package avalible today has a tool to fix the facing angle of each vert. in maya (8) its Normals>Reverse. all you have to do to fix it is select the polygon and use the tool. its that simple in max as well however i dont remember where the tool is.

also the mood of the artists is relitivly irrelevent to the project. if your happy or sad the most that can really affect is the time it takes to get to the same result. if you are focused enough on a project or have guidelines to fallow you dont need to worry about your emotional state. unless its a very open ended project dependent completely on the modeler for its result. moral in the professional world mostly equates out to how long the shelf life of an employee is, where a compony usualy tries to keep everyone happy they rarely drop a wad of perks on the staff just to keep everyone interested (i want to work for google lol)

exporting a model is rarely a problem, its true that maya can export a lot of diffrent formats but you need plugins and scripts to compile that information. if it hasn't been developed for Maya yet it can be saved as an OBJ and exported to another package that has. the best thing about owning a professional package is that its formats are widely used for compatibility. though if you have any spechial fuctions spasificly assosiated with maya (such as a Mental Ray render node or a toon shader ect ect) thats data will be lost, same can be said for rigging infromation. every package handels things a little bit diffrently and most things dont translate over unless they have been coded to do so at one end or the other.

Apeal is very important but bringing it up in a conversation is more or less a shot at the artist. its not really constructive critisisum to just say flat out "I dont like it" there is no room for imporvement in that comment.

however the other end of apeal is that if its viewed publicly it does have a strong effect on how the model is used. the astetics of a model affect it as much as the handeling of the model sometimes. though again, if you model from a concept its out of your hands. the most you can say is you achived the results dipicted in the concept art to the best of your ability. your own apeal is what counts when you send that to the people who are going to do something with the model.

I have to say this at the end as a final very important note, save save save save. its a very good practice to save frequently while you work with any 3d project. you could be working on a model for 10 minuets or 10 days its always good to show a prgression in your work. if you have any problems you at least have a point to go back to. dont be afraid to save because the model isnt complete, you should be more afraid that you didnt save before you made a seriouse mistake in modeling. I always save before I smooth just so i can go back without damaging the history or manualy reducing a model by half its geometry... generaly saving your file is just to protect you and the project not as a magic judgment button of your work. rarely do i ever make a single save to a file and call it done. thats a project i didnt spend nearly enough time on... i have characters that have over 50 save files from every conceivable step in its progression. saves where i have started over, saves where i removed thigns. added to the geometry and so on.

generaly it just comes down to experiance all the way around. I'm sure you'll get it eventualy.

meanwhile as comment to the piece you posted, its nice. it has the shape of an Arwing however a smooth may not have been apropreate for it. Arwings are very angular and have hard surfaces. usualy smooths apply to organic models. all in all its nice work ^^

[tamalero]

For a comment like this, I recommend you leave the modeling advice to others. Like everyone else has said, Maya is a professional package, Wings and Blender are nowhere near the same class.


Or he could just save different versions. Fighter1, Fighter2, etc. That's what I do, in case I need to go back.



What? "Long" enough? Ever seen the Slave One?



Take this own advice to heart. I've seen what you did with your other thread, with that unbelievably huge ship made out of a gazillion polies.



This is A) related to the post above, and B) a jagged ship is sometimes a style choice. Not everything has to be smoothed to look like a jelly bean.



See above.



What does that have to do with anything?



Er...same as the "is it too long". What? In fact, it's better if it's really long on the up/down axis, IMO, because no one designs ship along that axis, they always make them like Earth ships. If you go along that axis, you'll get some pretty unique designs.




So is pretty much every 3D app...



AFAIK Maya can export to anything useful, and if it can't, most conversion software/other modeling programs can read it's default format.



Which you have found out quite aptly.



What? Who cares. You make the model to the best of your ability, and you improve as you go.



...



I suggest you follow quite a few of them yourself.


----

As for the model, I can see what you're trying to do, but it's too smoothed IMO - the entire ship looks like one whole blobbish thing. If you look at SF ships, they're all kind of segmented and sharp-lined - there's the fuselage, the G-Diffusers (that's what I think they are, right?), and then the wings on the ends. I'd suggest applying some smoothing groups (dunno what they're called in Maya), and flattening out some of those surfaces to break up the blobbish look. Otherwise, looks good, just needs more detail (especially separating of fuselage components and a cockpit, although the latter really isn't necessary).

I think you need to tell him in a easier way to understand whats bad about it..
I think he tried to do the same error as many newbie modelers ( Like me )
he tried to make the arwing model using a SINGLE mesh structure, and he needs to remember that a house is never maded by a single thing...
he needs to create part per part, texture them , then join them, and voyla!
the sum of the factors creates the structure! :D

[Water]

I think you need to tell him in a easier way to understand whats bad about it..
I think he tried to do the same error as many newbie modelers ( Like me )
he tried to make the arwing model using a SINGLE mesh structure, and he needs to remember that a house is never maded by a single thing...
he needs to create part per part, texture them , then join them, and voyla!
the sum of the factors creates the structure! :D

Many models are a single mesh - just one part. Some of them can get quite complex. The skills you pick up learning to make it a single mesh can be very valuable. You are right it is not the only way.

The model was too simple for the smoothing. It would have looked better without it.

Trouble is, as I am finding out - training people is hard work. You have to think at their level to figure out the best way forward for them. It actually takes up a fair amount of time. And when you see the advice not being used - well, you tend not to reply as much (more work - without gain)

I can't speak for others, but most of my skills came from reading net tutorials, and figuring out stuff. :)

[Taristin]

I only ever model single-part. Using multiple parts and booleans only tends to make things messy and complicated in the future.